Another Cup For Western New York?

A trend will continue if the Penguins win the Stanley Cup this year, a real possibility now that Marian Hossa is on the roster. Pittsburgh has been terrific without Sid the Kid, so you can imagine how strong they'll be once Crosby and Hossa start playing with one another.

Two years ago, Clarence-raised Kevyn Adams won the Cup with Carolina. Last year, it was Williamsville native Todd Marchant and Anaheim. This year, it could be Brooks Orpik and the Pens. I guess that would leave West Seneca native Aaron Miller (Canucks) on deck with Lee Stempniak (Blues) and South Buffalo's Patrick Kane (Blackhawks) waiting for their turns.

At this rate, South Buffalo's Mike Ratchuk (Philly) and Kevin Quick (Tampa Bay) will bring the Cup home before Angola's Patrick Kaleta and South Buffalo's Tim Kennedy win one here.

--- Bucky Gleason

Comments

[Rick Baker]

Pittsburgh win the Stanley Cup>? Ha ha. Did anyone check the scorboard last night? Bruins 5 Pens 1. I hope we get those chumps in the first round. They will be toast. They have no depth and do you really think Conkliin can keep this good play up? No way.

[ElmaGolf]

Tom - I've enjoyed the back & forth as well. I appreciate reasonable disagreement - and my years on this earth have shown me that the "truth" is usually somewhere in the middle of the extreme perspectives.

I would concede that the Sabres might not have been a little better with Roberts or Guerin, but I can't say that that possibility was worth the risk of losing some very good future stars (since there was no Cup guarantee). I wish you could just concede that, based on what information was available at the time, it wasn't "out of this world" for the Sabres to think they had enough last year to get the job done. While it didn't necessarily work out, it doesn't prove that your option would have worked either (as evidenced by other teams trying). All I've ever said through all these posts is that people need to recognize that these are tough decisions and not as "easy" as they want them to sound.

As for Darcy's "passiveness," I guess that is just a different methodology, and not necessarily "right" or "wrong." Some people are "risk-takers" which can pay-off, but can also be very costly as well. You are right to say the Sabres are "lower risk" and tend to find "value" vs. "making big splashes."

Just because they haven't won a Cup doesn't mean that approach is wrong. There are a number of "risk-takers" that haven't won a Cup either in the last 40 years (e.g. Leafs).

The Devils have won Cups using pretty much the same philosophy as the Sabres. And it's not like the Sabres haven't come close.

So I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on which approach we think is better, but it doesn't necessarily mean either of us are "wrong".

I don't think anyone will ever be "proven" or "disproven" in a few years. Sometimes risky will work, sometimes safe will work - it's just interesting to have a rational discussion about all the complexities that go into the decision process.

Is that a reasonable way to end the ongoing exchange?

As for Bucky & the News, I'm fine with them articulating their point of view, but I just think they've lost some perspective and become too one-sided. It's just a little too "Stepford" with how they're all echoing each other over there.

Finally, I don't even want to get into the whole tax / Cdn $ discussion. I'm a CPA, so I understand some of the things you're talking about, but I'm nowhere's near enough to the financial records of the Sabres to make any affirmative statements about their cash flow, favorable tax treatments, etc.

[Tom]

Elma,

First on the GM issue.....this team knew full well at the trade deadline last year what their plans were for the offseason. Last year's playoff run was going to be Buffalo's best chance in the near future to win a Stanley Cup. While acquiring short term veterans like Bill Guerin and Gary Roberts may not have guaranteed a Cup, I don't know how you can argue that those two wouldn't have made a difference in the lineup for say an Adam Mair and a Drew Stafford. Guerin and Roberts both sweat blood and would not settle for the passive play the Sabres put on, especially against Ottawa. I don't suggest mortgaging the future every year, but if you can tell me with a straight face that you feel the Buffalo Sabres will have a better chance to win the Cup this year over last year, I will drop my point. Darcy manages the team to stay between #8 and #20 every year. He pays modest salaries to modest players in hopes of never dropping to the basement, yet feels he may catch lightning in a bottle one year and win the Cup. That is fine when you run a business that way because you have ownership's best interest in mind. Darcy is not a dumb man, he is not an evil man, but he is a man who takes very few chances. While the team is allowed to run as an efficient business,30,000 fans showed up to the arena, sell out the shelves of merchandise, and believe in a dream, and deserve more of a reward than the owner of the team who is worth just under $2 billion dollars, telling them it was all for naught and Buffalo has to keep tight pursestrings to stay competitive in the NHL.

Quinn's marketing + Regier's passiveness + Golisano's business accumen = No Stanley Cup

It is interesting that you mention Golisano may be ready to "flip" the team. I did not bring that up, and while I may or may not have the ressources to attempt a purchase, the reality is the strong Canadian Dollar, the 2008 election, and few commited long term player contracts lead me to believe that a sale is ripe next year.

At the time Golisano purchased the Sabres, the American Dollar was worth $1.60 Canadian and teams up north were having a difficult time staying viable. Today that same US Dollar is worth 98 cents Canadian. An investor looking to run a team in Canada now has almost twice the firepower. Investors such as Jim Basille who would LOVE to have a franchise in Hamilton. Investors like a group in Winnepeg who have been lying in wait, hoping to see the day where they can financially support and operate a team. That day is today. Basille was willing to give Nashville around $200 million for their team. That sounds pretty good to Mr Golisano considering he purchased the Sabres franchise for just over $60 million. You see, the other $22 million was for the arena and the Buffalo Bandits. They will most likely not be needed if the Sabres are sold to the higest bidder and receive blessing from the NHL to move the team northwest 100 kilometers.

Besides the obvious $140 million profit, why else might Tom Golisano sell the team soon? Well, considering a Democratic US Congress removed some of President Bush's tax cuts for the oil industry just today, and considering there is a 70% chance of a Democrat winning the Presidential election in November, there is a very good chance that the current long term capital gains rate of 15% would be repealed and resort back to 20% at the very least. So that puts a bit of a frown on Tommy G's face. I'm no math whiz, as you proved by disecting my alegebra the other day....but 5% on $140 million would be $7 million more for Uncle Sam and not Uncle Tom.

Now for the other tax issue. Since the IRS loves pro sports so much, they give owners of teams all kinds of goodies that most of us don't get to see. Like special accounting of players salaries and other depreciables. You know...the kind of benefits that will allow the Sabres to report they made $6 million last year when they really made closer to $15 million. One little drawback is, when selling a team, Tommy G would get taxed at a regular rate on some of the outstanding contracts going forward. Instead of being taxed 15% capital gains on the entire $140 million profit, he would now be taxed 35% on the portion of those salaries. If we had a full roster of stars signed to long term contracts such as Drury, Briere and Campbell, Golisano could lose another $5+ million in profit of his sale. Not to worry, as we only have 7 players under contract at the end of next season.

While I have had fun chatting with you these past few days my honorable Elma, I must tend to other matters the next few days. There is no need for either of us to stomp or shout, and I applaud you for a fairly positive debate.

The truth will be told over the next few years as to who's points can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, and yet some may never get the chance to blossom to maturity. I do feel it an obligation to inform the fans that support this team through thick and thin, of some of these possibilities. I also once again apllaud the staff of the News, especially Bucky Gleason, for not selling out and attempting to get to the truth.

[Hambone Johnson]

Bucky - maybe if Tampa Bay and Philly add some more overpriced $6-7 mill players, they'll be contenders. It's worked so well for both teams these last couple years so it must be the recipe for success in the NHL. Pay guys twice what they're worth! Too bad Sabres management doesn't believe in that philosophy!

[ElmaGolf]

Tom - By the way, in terms of "spinning" things, I couldn't help but notice that your response to be prior e-mail had nothing to do with the questions I raised.

Can you explain to me why the "Progressive GM" trade moves didn't work for anyone else last year, but how you could be certain all the Sabres needed to do last year was trade the future for Guerin or Roberts?

Or are you practicing to try-out for the Sabres Marketing department by avoiding questions you don't have answers for?

[ElmaGolf]

So in conclusion - you are upset because Larry Quinn has the audacity to try and put his "spin" on things (similar to how an agent does for a player, or how we as fans do on the blogs, or how a marketing department does for ANY business)?

I can't see as how I can persecute him for that.

As for the "Public Company" issue, there is nothing stopping you from getting together a group of investors and making a bid on the Sabres to buy them from Tom G. From what I see on the Blogs, there a a number of people who suspect Tom is ready to "flip" the team - so you may get your wish.

[Tom]

Elma Golf,

The only complexity needed to understand here is the fact that the Sabres are not a publicaly traded company that has shareholders who can hold the toes of management to the fire. It is up to the media to employ their fiduciary responsibility and investigate any quirks coming out of community based assets. That is what Bucky has done while most of the other media is controlled by the Sabres and sit by whistling so they can keep their jobs and continue to receive access to interviews and other perks.

This is how the Sabres front office works. Since you are not part of it, maybe I can fill you in on some of the complexities involved.

Larry Quinn is a marketing "guru" and part of the investment banking community. He smelled blood in the water when the Sabres were bankrupt, and put together a sweetheart deal for Tom Golisano. In return, he received part ownership and operations control of the team. It behooves him to keep the Sabres as profitable as possible, and in as positive a light as possible.

A major part of Quinn's philosophy is to constantly measure the temperature of the environment, much like many other politicians are want to do. The Sabres are constantly updating their marketing to coming trends, and believe it or not, will actually monitor local blogs and message boards to both get a feel for public sentiment, and to impart their best interests through various means. Because Buffalo is such a small and economicaly starving city, it is easy for those who have access to all elite means, to keep their viewpoint, propoganda, and message out there. It is only in a total collapse when the public starts to see the entire truth, that a level playing field begins to form.

The Sabres are currently a bit snippy with the Buffalo News. After sticking his moist finger into the air and seeing that fans wanted some answers from their absentee owner as to how a team could go from 1st to worst, Larry Quinn went to the Associated Press for a feel good piece about the usuals.....the Ice Bowl, bigger nets, how skilled players need room to operate..yada yada. As the Sabres continued their 10 game losing streak (Yet we were reminded on this very website by the Sabres PR that technicaly it wasn't a losing streak since the team did earn a couple points for "not winning" in overtime)....yes, it was then where the Sabres answered the public's cry for a word from Tom Golisano. He did so by means of an Infomercial on the Sabres network. Not a press conference, not a friendly 10 minute chat with a reporter over the phone, he did it with vasiline glossed smiling Mike Robitaille where we learned such COMPLEX details of owning a hockey team such as, "I love tennis!", and "Buffalo is great!"

If the Sabres were a public company, I could purchase up enough shares to file a proxy looking to get some new members on the board of executives that would look out for the best interests of the shareholders....in this case the city of Buffalo. As the stock price of the Sabres crashed with the obvious blunders by management, other astute buisinessmen would jump in for cheap and attempt a takeover of the team in order to install more secure and progressive management. You see, sort of how Tom Golisano was able to purchase the team in the first place in a firesale process which he was aided by the political connections both he and Quinn have.

The most Complex decision Darcy Regier has made the past year is whether to buy the Dodge Caravan or the Toyota Prius.

[ElmaGolf]

Hi Tom - done with your coffee yet? ;)

The one thing that is funny in this whole situation is that the "Progressive GM" in 2008 (Pittsburgh) is getting his players from last year's "Progressive GM" in Atlanta.

Last spring, Atlanta made the "progressive" maneuver in obtaining Tkachuk & Zhitnik to make a run. How smart does he look now?

It appears that he may have learned his lesson and somehow suckered Pittsburgh into making the same POTENTIAL mistake he made.

I'm not saying that Pittsburgh won't be successful, but it's just not as simple as you want it to be.

As for the names you mentioned, how did the Gary Roberts, Bill Guerin moves work out? About the same as the Ryan Smyth & Peter Forsberg trades.

I mean, Bill Guerin went to San Jose, but they probably didn't win because they didn't have a strong leader like say, Mike Grier, in the locker room. Oh wait, they did have both Grier and Guerin in the room and didn't win the Cup? I'd demand a recount if I were you.

Or did they lose to a team that got a bigger free agent like Nashville & Peter Forsberg? I mean, in a locker room with a strong leader like JP Dumont, that's a lock to win the Cup. I'd get another recount.

Tom, I respect that you have a theory about what it takes to win the Cup. And you like to criticize the Sabres and say the only reason they didn't win the Cup last year was because they didn't get more "progressive."

But you seemingly ignore the fact that your theory, while not tested in Buffalo, has been disproven as a "given" or "automatic formula."

I think the method the Sabres have used (searching for value, win with depth)does appear frustrating at times, and it's certainly not a "given" or "automatic" as well.

But the oversimplified beliefs that you & Bucky delude yourselves with have just got to be stopped.

I hate to get in the way of your "rant" with some actual evidence and history in the past years. I don't expect to change your mind completely, but hope you'll just take a few seconds to consider some of the complexity involved.

[Tom]

Darcy....I mean Hambone, as a sports fan in Buffalo, I don't have another 5 years to wait for yet another 5'11" Darcy special to develop, only to have him walk for nothing in the end.

When the history books are written, July 1, 2007 will be looked upon as the day the Buffalo Sabres died. Much like ESPN shows the Mayflower trucks pulling up to Baltimore Colts headquarters 25 years later...Local newscasts will show footage of Darcy yelling "The Sky Isn't Falling", and "Don't Come Shop Here" 25 years from now, when the Buffalo Sabres have been long gone.

Sabres Management KNEW they were letting their stars walk and that last year was THEEE CHANCE to bring home a Cup. With the current management in place, the Sabres will never have a shot like that again.

I've gotta run....rumor is Wilson Farms just got in a batch of Henrick Tallinder pins. Be careful though if you are a Sweedish girl contemplating buying one. You may just get pricked by it while you are asleep in your hotel room.

[ElmaGolf]

Scatman / Hambone -

I think that anyone who claims to know "for sure" that this trade is "good" or "bad" really underestimates how much winning a Cup relies on luck, timing, chemistry and so many other factors.

Generally, I think Bucky "oversimplifies" things in the interest of fitting everything into the "Sabres are Idiots" Worldview.

Hey, Pittsburgh may end up being right about this and win it all. And Bucky will feel vindicated with his "see, all the Sabres had to do was sign these oevrpriced free agents (or jump in their time machine and go back and re-sign everyone at a lower rate), and they would have won the Cup!"

But then again, if they don't win the Cup this year, it will have been quite an expensive gamble at the cost of some young talent.

I'm with you in that I don't think the model of spending 70% of your Cap on 4 players is a good model for running a franchise. For every team that occasionally wins that way, there are two or three others that have to sink to the absolute Rock-Bottom (i.e. Flyers / Leafs) to recover from the gamble.

[Hambone Johnson]

Tom - You wanted to trade MacArthur, Paille and Paetsch for rentals???? You act like it would have given us the cup if we had those guys, but if that backfires we would have sold off three guys that are our future. Thank god you're not our GM. We can't afford to make mistakes like that in the long run. The team was still built for a Cup run. They didn't need a bunch of guys from the outside to put them over the edge. And if we make those trades, you're the guy who would be complaining for the next 10 years when those three players turn out to be successful.

[Tom]

Yes Pittsburgh just traded away a few nice young players to obtain an elite level veteran for a playoff run, but that is what progessive GM's do. Pittsburg management sees that the Eastern Conference is up for grabs, NOW, and is doing everything in their power to bring a championship to their city.

It doesn't hurt so much to lose a few prospects when you have 2 of the top 5 players in the league, and both have just recently started shaving.

Why couldn't the Sabres management have done something like this last year? Before you say they didn't have cap room....they did have cap room. Tim Connolly had not played a game all year and was not close to returning, and Max Afinogenov had just broken his wrist and was projected to be lost as far out as 2 weeks into the playoffs. A proactive management would have taken advantage of an accounting loophole that allowed the team to not count Connolly's and Afinogenov's salaries against the cap and freed up close to $6 million in the process come the trading deadline. Dr. Darcy saw it in his best interest to proclaim he was positive Connolly and Afinogenov would be healthy before the playoffs. Here Darcy gives a medical prognosis months in advance when he usually gets flustered when having to decide between the Cheesesticks and the Quesadillas at Applebee's.

Are you telling me that the '06-'07 Sabres couldn't have used the help of gritty veterans such as Bill Guerin, Gary Roberts or Jason Blake? I know the Sabres are just LOADED with physical play and leadership.....but isn't it possible that trading a Clarke McArtur and a 1st round pick for Gary Roberts, then trading a Dan Paille and a Nathan Paetch for a Bill Guerin could have possibly been enough to bring the Sabres a Stanley Cup???

These deals were never made because Darcy knew the team was going to pull the plug on their star players this year, and needed cheap, young bodies to take their place. Instead of taking his moneyclip to the Craps table, Darcy saddled up to the penny slot machine next to the bathroom.

Enough Whining on my part....I have to go pull my President's Trophy T-shirts out of the wash now.

[Scatman]

I think Bucky is playing us with these posts. He can't be serious with this crap. No one who understands anything about the NHL and the Sabres/Penguins can honestly say that yesterday's trade for Hossa will be good for them. Giving up 3 young kids with potential plus a #1 for a rental and Dupuis is borderline nuts for a team like Pittsburgh. I don't think they'll get out of the 2nd round. Hossa has 35 points in 55 playoff games. Nice!

[Hambone Johnson]

Bucky - if you had any clue you might actually realize that Pittsburgh probably just made a huge mistake. They traded away two good young players (Armstrong and Christensen), a guy that slipped in the draft who many believe was the best prospect (Esposito), and a 1st round pick. And what did they get? A playoff underachiever in Marian Hossa along with Dupuis. That's quite a bit to give up for a rental (Hossa). If they do manage to sign him (probably $7 mill per season), they'll have to part ways with Jordan Staal when his contract is up. Bash the Sabres all you want, but at least call out teams like the Rangers, Flyers, and now Pittsburgh that try to build around 4 players who take up 70% of their cap space. This is not how teams win the cup. Also, you may want a better option than Ty Conklin if you expect to win it all. Not going to happen.

[W]

Hey, quick question: How many general managers have actually built a Cup winning team over the last few years out to the 30 teams? Its one per year.

The winning of a Stanley Cup is an epic event, people.

[Shawn]

I have to hand it to Bucky Gleason. At first I thought he was turning into Gerry Sullivan II, now I realize he was Paul Revere. Bottom line: "If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, guess what?" Quinn and Golisano are a couple of ducks. Regier can make an argument of what he wants, but at the end of the day he has to tow the line. The Sabres are turning into Jeremy Jacob's Bruins teams...build a contender and ride them as far as you can until they start asking for raises, then tear them apart and start over. Ho many Cups have the Bruins won with Jeremy Jacobs as the owner? ZERO!!!! Take note Larry and Tom! Fans want to root for players that personify the town, team chemistry, and love being here...you guys are making the Sabres into a gradual laughing stock again, not just around the country, but with the fans themselves. The Capitals do not fill there stadium, even when they are good! They do not sell the merchandise or have the fan loyalty Buffalo has. They charge about the same for tickets as the Sabres...guess what? They pay salaries of guys they want to keep and are after more talent. I know this because I live in DC. Golisano and this team make lot's of money, those of us that are connected to Buffalo and other cities in our jobs know better. It will be interesting how quickly the season ticket base dwindles in Buffalo now. Here is a piece of advice, go after Brian Campbell and sign him for 8 years when he is up for free agency on July 1st and the fans may just think you are a bunch of wizards for pulling off a prospect, a first rounder, and getting Brian back in the end! Still, we will not delude ourselves with your cheap talk anymore. Thanks to you clowns, the Sabres have gone from the prototype team for the NEW NHL, to playoff bottom feeders at best.

[Vince]

Funny how none of those home town boys brought the cup to Buffalo after they won it like many players do in their home towns. Go figure.

[Jeff]

Seriously, why does it seem that every other city (even those comparable to Buffalo in size, population, income) at least has a superstar/star to root for?

Cleveland- Lebron James, Grady Sizemore
Pittsburgh- Sidney Crosby, Big Ben Rothlesburger, and now Hossa
Indianapolis- Peyton Manning
Green Bay- Brett Favre
Detroit- 3 NBA All Stars (2008), just traded for 2 Florida Marlins young stars
Baltimore- Ray Lewis, Ed Reed (Not stars, but both were former Defensive POYs)
Cincinatti- Ken Griffey Jr, Carson Palmer
Atlanta- Chipper Jones, Mike Vick (prison MVP), John Smoltz, Tom Glavine
Dallas- Tony Romo, T.O., Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Kidd
Seattle- Kevin Durant, Ichiro
Portland- Greg Oden, Brandon Roy (and they only have one major team!)
Washington- Ovechkin. Gilbert Arenas

And the list goes on. Can someone really tell me that Buffalo matches up to these cities in "star power"? Who would be on our list? Miller and Vanek? Marshawn Lynch and Jason Peters? Doesn't quite have the same ring to it, does it?

This just illustrates how difficult it has been to root for Buffalo Sports Teams since Jim Kelly, Bruce, Andre, Hasek, Lalalalalafontaine, ect were here. Look how far we've fallen...we don't even have a star to rally around. Sad.

[Tom]

Keep Strong Bucky!

If Buffalo was a bigger sports town like NY, Philly or Chicago, the Sabres Management would have been swept out, both after July 1st and during their 10 game losing streak. While guys like Ed Kilgore and Dennis Williams were rubber stamping approval of the moves on July 1st, telling people that the Sabres management has a plan and it will all be ok, Bucky was the only guy who had enough stones to confront the Sabres.

The press conference after losing Drury and Briere was pure politics, and Bucky called Quinn on it. Rule #1 in politics...when someone has real dirt on you, get your side of the story out there first so people might take your side as fact. Bucky was ready to roll with the story that the Sabres held back the 4 for 22 contract on Drury...but Quinn called a Holiday Weekend presser to beat him to the punch. The week leading to the deadline you had Vanek's agent laughing outright at the Sabres front office, and Briere was so disgusted with his token offer that he left town early since the writing was on the wall. And I'm supposed to blame the players?

The Sabres passive and arrogant management is nothing short of an outright slap in the face to the Buffalo sporting public. Quinn is a marketing master who seems to look at the area as a bunch of Rubes who will do nearly anything and fall for nearly anything his establishment says. Bucky can't say that. I will though.

Losing Brian Campbell isn't the end of the world. Most serious Sabre fans will agree that he is in line for the type of money that should be paid to a superstar, not a speedy puck moving defenseman who is a nice guy. This just opens up the wounds of previous mismanagement, and once again shows that the hockey department is busy designing new jerseys, bigger nets, blue ice, and outdoor plans instead of doing anything of consequence to help the team.
I'm surprised they don't have Gaustad out there selling "Limited Edition" Green jereys at $200 a pop, yet. The sad irony is that the team itself no longer runs on diesel, but looks to be more of a Prius these days. I don't call shotgun.

[ElmaGolf]

Bucky - what do you hope to accomplish with your perpetual pessimism?

Seriously, you have really sacrificed your objectivity in order to make ALL things fit into your "Sabres' Management Are Idiots" theory. I'm not saying that you don't have some points to be made, but you've gone around the bend in any hopes of seeing both sides of a situation.

I wish I had the rest of the tape of today's interview with Ryan Miller. Millsy was able to spot how you were looking to "lead" questions to support your theory. You took his mention of "good-faith" negotiating as an opportunity to see if he'd bolster your theory that "poor players are always mishandled by management."

When a Player spots that a supposedly "objective" reporter has "a side" - there is something seriously lacking from a journalistic standpoint. You are supposed to interview a player to get his perspective on a situation, not try to "convince him" that he should adopt your perspective (from waaay outside the locker room).

(If people are curious, listen to the last 20 seconds of the Miller Interview today on WGR's archive).

[IOS]

LOL they will probably all win two cups before Buffalo...

[Drew]

Bucky, what point does that useless post serve? None! You need to stop treating people like they are idiots. You brought up absolutely nothing useful and newsworthy with that post.

Exactly why should we believe that the Canucks, Blues, Blackhawks, Flyers and Lighting will all win the cup before Buffalo?

Your above garbage is nothing more than pure Sabre-bashing propaganda, plain and simple!

[Tom]

You can not stop the monster that is QUINGIERISANO. It will not be happy until it sucks every last penny off of the adoring fans. It will not rest until it removes every last drop of testosterone from the team. It will not back down until this town stops buying into her BS as if they lived in 1930's Italy.

[IOS]

It is the only way we ever get the cup here to WNY. We have to depend on hometown players winning it with other teams!