Canucks loading with Big Bear
Click here for a Canucks.com video talking to Steve Bernier at Vancouver's prospect camp. Looks like there's a chance he'll be on a line with the Sedin twins. We'll see him in HSBC, remember, on Oct. 17.
I'd still like to know what the Canucks saw to give Bernier $2.5 million and thus automatically turn him into a marquee guy. He says in the video he's lost 8-10 pounds and I think he could have helped the Sabres this year -- as a third- or fourth-liner. His skating ability is a real question, so all of a sudden he's playing with the Sedins?
Either the Sabres were very wrong about Bernier -- which makes the take in the Brian Campbell trade a real head-scratcher -- or the Canucks are grossly overpaying.
---Mike Harrington
Whoa!! Chad & Excuses.
With all your entertaining banter on Teppo you missed out on the Darche signing. It may not have made the Blog, but they had an interesting article about him when he signed. Technically he is signed to a Sabres contract which counts towards the cap. But he was primarily brought in to go to Portland & work with all the young kids we are going to have there. If needed up here, he would be a desperation call up. He's more on the lines of a player, coach in Portland. He has been with Portland as part of the Anaheim system over the last couple of years and is a fan favorite there.
Posted by: greg | August 26, 2008 at 09:15 PM
Probably, but The Exucses have him on their 24 man roster...
Posted by: Buffalo Excuses | August 26, 2008 at 07:21 PM
Excuses, Mathieu Darche will be very good this year...for Portland.
Posted by: Chad | August 26, 2008 at 05:16 PM
BE - far too obvious trolling.
Peace,
Elma
Posted by: ElmaGolf | August 26, 2008 at 01:14 PM
Enough about the past, what about the future? Not sure how I missed this one, but Mathieu Darche has made it to The Excuses Roster. I had to root around for his salary and WHOA! $500,ooo smackeroos for this journeyman.
Sportsnet has this scouting report on him:
"Has produced points at all levels, except the big league."
Now, before you get too excited...he's 31. So don't go looking for the fountain of youth...well, on this board, anything's possible. The Audacity of Hoopla runneth eternal...
Speaking of poltics....and bandwagon fans....did any notice that our bestest businessman donated $1.0 MILLION to the Democratic National Convention? Apparently he had some loose change lying around as he was able to outwit the NHL by siging Teppo and Darche instead of (insert your favorite former free agents).
Isn't he a Republican who spent some $93 MILLION trying to get elected Guvnah? Wait, he's an Independent, right? No, apparently now he's a Democrat? Ummm....sounds like a bandwagon fan to me!
It also sounds like he is more interested in investing in winning at Politics than he is about winning The Cup.
Posted by: Buffalo Excuses | August 26, 2008 at 09:01 AM
Adam, good one. That definitely made me chuckle.
Posted by: Dave | August 25, 2008 at 10:54 PM
While we're reminiscing about Bernier and Pyatt, I'll just go ahead and say it. This team has never been the same since we lost Jeff Jillison.
Posted by: Adam | August 25, 2008 at 11:06 AM
No worries, Mike. I think your inference was pretty clear to most readers, including this one. Vancouver's motivation for overpaying Bernier is puzzling, unless they feel certain the clutching-and-grabbing, mucking-and-grinding, size-is-all-that-matters style of play is once again the "new NHL." I'd prefer to see the speed, skill and clean hitting of the first two post-lockout years but I'm not on the Board of Governors.
Actually, I think Vancouver is STILL trying to undo the disastrous Cam Neely trade of 20 years ago. First they tried to groom Pyatt into the next Neely. Now they're hoping Bernier can become the next elite power forward. Not happening. He doesn't have the talent, the work ethic or the intensity. He won't even match Pyatt's numbers with the Sedin twins.
And greg, I saw your post, you wascally wabbit. No one was kowtowing to anyone. Entertaining or not, there are only so many times you can beat a dead horse. But don't worry. I have a feeling more fireworks are coming as training camp nears. I'm surprised we're even devoting so much time and attention to Bernier. Sabres fans are hungry, very.
Posted by: Mac | August 24, 2008 at 05:31 PM
Wiseup: That was a pretty gratuitous shot saying the News has "hack reporters". Did you read the post? I'M THE ONE who said the Canucks overpaid and the guy was probably only a third- or fourth-liner for the Sabres this season.
The discussion of Bernier possibly being a loss to the Sabres was brought up by commentors.
You can disagree with anything we say, of course, and are always entitled to your opinion. But you can't call me a hack over this one. Read the post again.
Posted by: Mike Harrington | August 24, 2008 at 03:48 PM
is there seriously a conversation on how this is a loss for the Sabres? After the 1st game he played with us where did he go? This guy sucks. If your putting your money on this guy because of what he said in a pre-preseason interview then you people have drank the Bucky kool-aide. when he plays well, for an extended period of time, then please post your feelings on how this guy is/was good. Until then if you want a slow, unreliable player then bernier is your man.
What a bunch of hack reporters the news has....
Posted by: wise up | August 24, 2008 at 11:26 AM
Pyatt was a mediocre fourth-line quality hockey player when he played in Buffalo and he brought about as much "grit" to the team as Michael Grosek's wife. Regardless of how much Pyatt would be worth if he were a race horse, that doesn't change the fact that the Sabres aren't missing much with Pyatt a few thousand miles away. In Vancouver, Pyatt hasn't cracked the 37 point mark despite the fact that my niece could score 20 goals playing with the Sedin twins (Anson Carter scored 33 goals playing with the Sedins, without the Sedins, well, he's out of the league).
As for Bernier, when you have 14-15 NHL caliber forwards in your organization (not to mention players like Nathan Gerbe and Tim Kennedy down in your farm system), you have to make some tough choices. When it came time for Regier to make a decision about Bernier, he knew two things: 1. Bernier was pretty much invisible after his first game with the team. 2. Bernier was going to get an offer sheet from another team. Regeir knew he wouldn't match an offer sheet for a player that would have a hard time cracking the starting lineup, so he decided to be pro-active about it.
I'm no apologist for the Sabres. I'm still bitter they let Drury get away, but the Sabres have had a great offseason in 2008.
Posted by: Adam | August 24, 2008 at 10:37 AM
I will admit to being sold on Grosek as well. Bernier could very well turn into another Grosek. When we had Grosek, grit wasn't nearly the issue it is today though.
Maybe Grosek's girlfriend can come back to Buffalo and fix the powerplay like he said she could back then!
There are guys on the Sabres that can develop into more physical roles, but the culture is so far blown right now I have little faith. Rivet is one guy, and he can't get 82 games out of the rest of them.
There were at least 2 teams willing to pay Bernier. Vancouver made the trade and could have just as easily dropped a sheet on Buffalo. Now, I had them knocking on our door the whole time. In the horseracing game, we call what Vancouver does to Buffalo players, "moving them up on the claim". What that means is that in many horseraces, you can "buy" or what is called "claim" a horse before the horse runs the race that day. The original owner gets whatever money the horse earns that race, but the new owner gets the horse to keep once the race is over. This system is set up to level the competition out so good horses can't race against lower quality horses and earn all the money. An owner has to decide at what price they are willing to risk having their horse taken from them.
Well...some trainers or owners that have little respect for another trainer's skills will often claim multiple horses from that trainer. They figure for instance that "He has no idea what he is doing with that type of horse. That horse needs to run long on the grass, not short on the dirt. If that horse is worth $30,000 to him, I'm sure we can get him going to the point where he is worth $75,000 or even better."
Just like in hockey there is a stigma to taking another trainer's horse via claim. If you do it to them, be ready for them to do it to you. But.....you have no fear if you think you can get more out of a horse than the other guy. He would be stupid to come at you in that case.
Vancouver "claimed" Pyatt for cheap and moved up his game. Maybe in the horse world Pyatt was a $16,000 claimer that Vancouver turned into a $30,000 horse. He still moved up for what was given up for him. That is hard to argue.
Since that worked so well, Vancouver tried the same thing on a similar player, but with much more potential and at a much higher price. Bernier was like a $100,000 claimer left exposed, and one with a bunch of races in front of him. You don't claim a horse for that price unless you think he is going to be a good horse that can run in stakes or allowances where you don't have to put a price on your horse.
Vancouver figures that they might have hit the motherload on this one, and I can't blame them. They know San Jose inside and out, and have a history with Buffalo. Bernier can always turn into a clunker, but I am basing my expectations on the expectations of Vancouver. When it comes time to bet my money, I know the history when the Canucks "claim" a big man.
I'm putting my $100 down on Big Bear to win, and a $5 trifecta box on Sedin#1, Bernier, and Sedin #2.
Late program change. In today's seventh race, the 3 horse, "Darcy's Image", should be listed as a gelding.
Posted by: Tom | August 24, 2008 at 02:27 AM
"Elma. My point wasn't about the players themselves, it was that the team is willing to give every last chance in the world to guys that look the style of what they want to do, yet they give up on guys that can bring a different quality to the team much too early."
I can appreciate that sentiment (more with Bernier than Pyatt). I'm not so sure it's that they will give extra chances to some players that "fit the mold", it's more that they won't "buy out" those players. In other words, if Max was a FA for the upcoming season, he'd be gone right now. I can't fault them for resigning him after the season he had in 2005-06, but I don't think they're "fully committed" to him now - they just don't want to eat $3.3MM (rightly or wrongly).
"Pyatt isn't an All-star, but there are enough real fans here to remember him coming off that nagging injury to be a real force in the Carolina series. He was sitting on improvement and they gave him away."
Again, 37 points per year, when paired up with a some pretty explosive linemates ahows he's still "sitting" and waiting to improve.
Look, I know you want grit and toughness - I'm not disagreeing with you there. I think we're still missing some of that, unless Kotalik plays with the "chip" he shows on rare occassions, Gaustad matures into the Pyatt role you missed, and Stafford can use his size. And I know how much you dislike Kaleta's antics, but hopefully he'll change to what you'd like as he matures. In an ideal world, Rivet will show them how to use their size to not be the same pushovers that let Laraque elbow Paetsch with impunity.
"Maybe it will end up being his Rob Johnson game, but the kid is 5 years away from his prime and has 5 tools."
That may be fine, but if the kid is demanding to be paid like he met his prime for the 5 years before that happens, there's a problem. Michel Grosek had a few "Rob Johnson" games over the years as well - I guess you never know. Still, I do find the limited number of offer sheets received by Bernier to be telling.
Posted by: ElmaGolf | August 24, 2008 at 12:17 AM
"Chad....Bernier in Vancouver will score at least, on average, a goal every three games he plays. I expect him to be a 25-40 goal scorer for years to come."
I'd take that bet every day of the week. Are you willing to disregard the fact that two organizations in the top 1/4 of the league since the lockout have both given up on the guy? He's played two full seasons and has been traded twice. Does nothing about that raise a red flag to you? Or are both organizations just stupid? And you can say "well San Jose had to give up a good player to get Campbell," but they could have given up a lot of players (Setoguchi, etc), yet got rid of Bernier.
"put in the tape of that Nashville game and tell me one player that brought the complete package to the table for this team like that in the past 20 years?"
Hyperbole at its finest. I have no qualms in saying that you are completely overstating the importance of that ONE game. Best, most complete game by a Sabre in 20 years?! What?! We all were excited after that game but then reality set in and exposed Bernier for what he was: a third-line grinder capable of having some good games, but not a player who will consistently give you offense. And it's not like the Sedins are going to transform him into some stellar offensive talent. Bernier has played with some top tier talent already (Marleau, Thornton, Roy, Vanek among others).
Fact of the matter is he was our fourth best offensive RW (Pominville, Kotalik, Stafford, Max) and many Sabres fans think Kaleta is a necessary player in this lineup (I'm undecided on Kaleta). We just didn't need the guy.
"Anyone want to give me 8-1 odds on Bernier scoring more goals than Miller plays games this year?"
Sure. You can send me the money after Miller plays his 20th game.
Posted by: Chad | August 23, 2008 at 11:41 PM
Chad....Bernier in Vancouver will score at least, on average, a goal every three games he plays. I expect him to be a 25-40 goal scorer for years to come.
Elma. My point wasn't about the players themselves, it was that the team is willing to give every last chance in the world to guys that look the style of what they want to do, yet they give up on guys that can bring a different quality to the team much too early.
Pyatt isn't an All-star, but there are enough real fans here to remember him coming off that nagging injury to be a real force in the Carolina series. He was sitting on improvement and they gave him away.
I understand the need for Rivet, and the reluctance to give Bernier $2 million, but put in the tape of that Nashville game and tell me one player that brought the complete package to the table for this team like that in the past 20 years? Maybe it will end up being his Rob Johnson game, but the kid is 5 years away from his prime and has 5 tools.
I am happy for his career that he isn't a Sabre. Once you get off the 190....check your sack at the door, because you won't need it on this team.
I won't be chiming in much this year because there is nothing left to say. I just cringe when the propoganda monster gets his way, and Bernier gets labeled as.."Can't skate."
The Sabres should give a refund to anyone who purchased a Bernier jersey considering they were pumping them out 24 hours after the Nashville game.
Anyone want to give me 8-1 odds on Bernier scoring more goals than Miller plays games this year?
Posted by: Tom | August 23, 2008 at 09:26 PM
I ran this on the other post, but just wanted to make sure it doesn't go unread. I see you guys are picking up where you left off (minus the name calling, that's really not entertaining. The back & forth banter is the entertaining part). Until the puck drops, keep it up, it makes for a dose of great comedy as summer dwindles away).
(Previous Post) I can't believe my eyes. You guys are cowtowing (may be grammaticallyincorrect) to Mac.
Come on Mac, as I stated previously before, these guys are the best summer entertainment around. Don't shut them up. Rattle their cages, poke a stick at the hornets nest.
But if it may end, it has been an enjoyment.
Posted by: greg | August 23, 2008 at 07:38 PM
"Two players on Buffalo have a shot of scoring more goals than Bernier. Vanek and Roy."
You must be saying this for the sole reason of getting a rise. You're telling me Jason Pominville doesn't have a SHOT at scoring more goals than Bernier? Come on. I'll put it this way, barring serious injury I'll be surprised if Bernier scores more goals than Pommers in any of the next 5 seasons. I also think it's ridiculous to say Hecht, Paille, Kotalik, and Stafford have no shot at scoring more goals than Bernier. Bear is a third line player on a team with even average offensive players.
"Pyatt was one of the top 5 players on the ice for the '06 playoff run. You couldn't move him off of the puck."
Unfortunately for you, Tom, these things can be looked up. Pyatt finished T-13th on the team in playoff points (0 G's, 5 A's), tied with McKee and Lydman. Of the 26 skaters the Sabres used during the 2005-06 playoffs, only two had a worse +/- than Pyatt: Jeff Jillson and Seven Million Dollar Man Brian Campbell. You're really going to sit there with a straight face and tell us Pyatt was one of the five best players in those playoffs? I'm going to just assume "top 5" was a typo and you meant "top 15."
"We go signing 170lb strawmen to $3 mil per when $3 million was a lot for a contract, yet we let bonafide power forwards walk because they haven't scored 40 goals in a season by their 23rd birthday."
What could you possibly have seen in Pyatt's career that would suggest he'd be better than Connolly, Max or Kotalik? You call those other guys "strawmen" but in three of the four seasons Pyatt played in Buffalo he played in 63, 48 and 41 games; not exactly a model of durability. And save me the "we should have signed him instead of Max or Connolly." Besides his poor 2005-06 playoffs, Pyatt had 12 pts in 41 games during that regular season. Re-signing him and allowing Max and/or Connolly walk would be roughly equivalent to re-signing Gaustad this summer and allowing a guy like Pominville or Vanek (assuming either were up for FA) to walk. Would you ever advocate that? Because that's essentially what you're saying Buffalo should have done that summer.
Posted by: Chad | August 23, 2008 at 01:06 PM
Tom - good to see you back (no sarcasm intended).
I can see your point on not waiting for Bernier to mature. I think it's a little different with Pyatt.
Even if you were right that it was a mistake to re-sign Connolly, that probably still wouldn't have saved Pyatt. Losing Connolly would have saved Dumont, but whose salary would have saved Pyatt? You had to resign your leading scorer (Max) and comparing Kotalik to Pyatt based on the 2005-06 season would have sent Pyatt packing as well.
Regardless, I still think you're severely overstating what Pyatt brought to Vancouver. He had 37 points in each of the past two seasons, playing on a line with the Sedins.
In comparison, that's less than Connolly put up in 1/2 a season skating with Bone Spurs. That's less than Kotalik, Stafford and the same as Goose (playing on a 3rd line). And even with Max's abysmal 2008, Max put up more PPG (28/56) than Pyatt (on a 4th line, no less), and roughly 20% more points in the two seasons combined.
How exactly are we "missing" Pyatt's contributions?
You can say he has "potential" and I'm all for respecting that possibility. But if you ask why the Canucks have come knocking again for a Power Forward, it might just be because they're last one didn't produce that much, even playing on a line with the Sedins.
I know it's a little hyperbolic in comparison, but you couldn't move Paul Kruse from the front of the net either. Didn't make me miss him.
However, I'm probably a little more in your camp on Bernier. I'm happy we got Rivet to add that Miller protection you've been clamoring for. I'm still not clear why we HAD to get the picks for Bernier to secure Rivet.
If we walked away from Bernier because of the price tag ($2.5MM), I think that's a bit strange. I wanted to see more what he could do and liked the size.
If they didn't he was worth $2.5 for 1 year, I agree with Mike that they missed on the initial talent evaluation. Perhaps they saw something in the locker room or practice habits that they couldn't evealuate until he was here, but the whole thing seemed a little odd. Still, I'm surprised that that was the best offer sheet he received, so there's apparently doubts accross the league on this kid.
You may be proved right with Bernier in Vancouver, but I don't think you can "claim victory and depart the ice" with Pyatt.
Posted by: ElmaGolf | August 23, 2008 at 11:37 AM
Two players on Buffalo have a shot of scoring more goals than Bernier. Vanek and Roy.
Pyatt was one of the top 5 players on the ice for the '06 playoff run. You couldn't move him off of the puck. We go signing 170lb strawmen to $3 mil per when $3 million was a lot for a contract, yet we let bonafide power forwards walk because they haven't scored 40 goals in a season by their 23rd birthday. A guy the size of Bernier or Pyatt doesn't reach full maturity until 25. Connolly is never going to be big, but Bernier dropping his baby fat is no surprise.
If Darcy ran the military, he would sell off all our tanks to Russia and have our boys invade Iran on mopeds.
Posted by: Tom | August 23, 2008 at 12:09 AM
Geoff, if they were wrong "either way" in acquiring them, doesn't that mean they made a great move to parlay him into Rivet, who also fills a huge team need? Or would you rather just knock them for the first move and disregard the second?
Posted by: Chad | August 22, 2008 at 05:46 PM
For the love of all that's good, are people really deifying Steve Bernier and Taylor Pyatt right now? For once, I'm almost speechless. I don't even know where to start on this one. I'll do my best:
"Either the Sabres were very wrong about Bernier -- which makes the take in the Brian Campbell trade a real head-scratcher."
That may be so, but if the Sabres were very wrong about Bernier, doesn't that make parlaying Bernier into Rivet a coup? Just thought I'd put that out there.
"or the Canucks are grossly overpaying"
I'll take (c) none of the above. They're paying him roughly 4% of their cap. He's a former 1st round pick. If they're wrong, they have no obligations after this year. They gave up a draft pick that may or may not pan out. I don't even think this is much of a risk.
"I don't know why everyone knocks this guy's skating ability."
Because he's slow! He'd probably make Andrew Peters or Sean McMorrow look like Dan Jensen.
"I'll say it again. It was no fluke that Bernier had his best game off of the plane."
You're right. I'd call it a lethal cocktail of having a hop in his step and, more importantly, the complete inability of either Nashville goaltender to save any puck shot at them that evening. Didn't we score like 8 goals that game? And you're pointing to 10 minutes of action to support your theory that, wait for it, Buffalo's offensive system makes offensive players...worse?!? To give you a frame of reference, you're pointing to a game where Andrew Peters scored a goal and Toni Lydman had 4 points. That type of game happens REAL often. Blind squirrels and acorns, brother.
"Once Ruff drove the system into his head, it was all downhill."
Chaos! That's what we want! Everyone, start playing off your instincts! Don't adhere to any semblance of organization. You'll be better if you just start skating around like chickens with your heads cut off. You're right, Buffalo's offensive system is terrible. The Sabres have had a terrible offense since the lockout. Oh wait...
"Pyatt was worthless in Buffalo too. Gee, I wonder why Vancouver came knocking again for any forward over 6 feet with 2 decended testes?"
Wait, are we really breaking out the popsicle sticks for the 4th leading scorer on the team that finished 26th in scoring? His numbers went up because he played more as Vancouver has sorry forwards. He scored half his goals on the power play by standing in front of the net. So does Vanek, and Vanek does it twice as much.
For eff's sake, it's Taylor Pyatt and Steve Bernier.
Posted by: Chad | August 22, 2008 at 05:44 PM
I wish we'd kept him for another year ... we certainly seem to have a longer leash for other forwars on this team who do not seem to have his upside.
Puzzling. At the end of the day, the Sabres were either wrong in their assessment of him before they acquired him in the Campbel trade, or after they acquired him and then traded him away. But either way, they were wrong.
Posted by: Geoffrey Anger | August 22, 2008 at 05:17 PM
I don't know why everyone knocks this guy's skating ability. He has size, strength, hands, instincts, will protect his teammates and create room for the skilled guys. Pretty much everything the Sabres don't look for in a player.
I'll say it again. It was no fluke that Bernier had his best game off of the plane. Once Ruff drove the system into his head, it was all downhill. When playing off of instincts with new linemates an a new team, the kid drove to the net, followed up, threw pucks in anticipation of where guys would be, charged 120' to level a guy that was picking on a smaller Sabre...you know...things we haven't seen here since guys like Foligno or Gare. By game #5 Lindy had the kid scared chitless to leave his defensive positioning or make a pass without making eye contact for 3 seconds. God forbid he took a penalty after the whistle when the opposition plays candlestick bowling with Miller as the headpin.
Ruff turned Big Bear into Huggy Bear, and when this kid scores 30+ goals each of the next 5 years when healthy and is wearing a letter, enjoy watching the icecapades at HSBC.
Pyatt was worthless in Buffalo too. Gee, I wonder why Vancouver came knocking again for any forward over 6 feet with 2 decended testes? While we're at it, someone remind me that Dave Andreychuk couldn't skate either.
Lindy....get back on the wagon
Darcy...grow a set and take a risk for once in your life
Quinn.....the next time you want to take my money so you and your pols can dump a little bucket over a little bridge that was built for 20x the amount it could have been built for at a location that rivals Love Canal when the lab results come back and your boy will end up getting the contract to clean it up anyway....please let me know ahead of time. I've run out of Vasoline and don't have the credit to buy another jar.
Posted by: Tom | August 22, 2008 at 03:39 PM
Good one, Dave. I can't figure out what's goofier -- the Canucks offering Sundin 2/$20M or Sundin not taking it the second he got it!!
Posted by: Mike Harrington | August 22, 2008 at 03:39 PM
He'll get some goals just hanging out in front of the net playing with the Sedins, but I agree with Mike's assessment.... His skating, even to the average observer, was not good enough to keep up with the speed of the game.
Maybe that's less of an issue in the West, but it was clear in Buffalo.
Posted by: jpt0320 | August 22, 2008 at 03:38 PM
It will be interesting to see how he pans out in Vancouver. I'm hardly an expert, but it seems like the Canuck's management is a bit goofy as well, so perhaps they are also prone to making odd, confusing decisions about players that other teams may not be so inclinded to make. I mean, just think about that offer they gave Sundin.
Posted by: Dave | August 22, 2008 at 03:08 PM
Look how well Pyatt did with the twins. He should have no problem scoring 20+ . We traded a 23 year old with alot of upside and the size that this teams lacks. It had be debated before onthis site that it was done to enable us to get Rivet which we also deparately needed. To bad we could not of had both,and unloaded some glut at forward like (Maxie or Kotalik). I think Bernier will be a solid #2 or #3 winger for along time. I am sure that if he was not restricted free agent he would still be on this roster.
Posted by: kriszaP | August 22, 2008 at 03:06 PM